New AMCA Judging Criteria Introduced at Eustis

[Chris Haynes]

So now a bike can't have reproduction cylinders? What about unrestored machines? Did the "Service Items" go out the window too. Things normally replaced during a machines life like tires and tubes, chains, bulbs, rubber fuel and oil lines, grips, seat cover, ETC.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

So now a bike can't have reproduction cylinders? What about unrestored machines? Did the "Service Items" go out the window too? Things normally replaced during a machines life like tires and tubes, chains, bulbs, rubber fuel and oil lines, grips, seat cover, ETC.?

"Service Items" as you listed, stayed the same. That came up in the judging of an unrestored (and Boy, was it unrestored!) Post-war Big Twin. I think it was a Knucklehead. It had friction tape around the kick pedal, also around the rubber grips, a worn-through heel (the metal part) of the clutch pedal, and a nice (rust) patina. Quite a piece. We did it justice, as an unrestored bike.
Chris, you have to wrap your mind around this: understand that the objective of this exercise is to, basically, keep "repops" from overtaking the hobby. Soon, people will be able to build "anything," and I mean anything, by paging through a couple of catalogs!
The integrity of the old bikes, the REAL "survivors," is what is being protected. And "bitza" bikes aren't going to make Winners' Circle, further elevating the prestige (kind of lacking in recent years) of the true restorations of what were originally integral bikes to their true "factory condition." As they left the factory "the first time," to boot.

[Bigincher]

I guess I'll just junk my '52 project. Probably rake the frame, cut off all the tabs and make it a chopper.

[joestuff]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Swap-meet bikes are going to have a very hard time seeing the Winners' Circle. As was communicated today, not every bike is going to be eligible for the Winners' Circle. It is being elevated up at least another "rung on the ladder." From here on, Winners' Circle will mean really exceptional.

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me, that cutting off builders from building "restored" bikes is going to take alot of the interest out of the hobby.

Why would I not just build a chopper with those mis-matched pan head cases I just picked up, instead of trying to make a nice, detail oriented correct bike. We have our bikes judged not to make money on re-selling them, but to get the knowledge transfer about what is correct.

I guess it's not a problem to keep those bikes outta the winner circle by points, but if it deters people from trying, it's bad for the club and bad for the hobby. I still think there can be a better way, maybe a different class of judging for "re-constructed" bikes, that has all the points, but not the winner circle...After all, we want people to build old bikes outta oil stains, right?

Anyway, Sarge, thanks for the info and detailed post.

[Greg H]

Has the rule allowing engine & frame numbers non -matching but factory genuine of same year OK ,bit the dust?

Quite a few repercussions with all this rule change
Good point on the legality
Will the repo-ers up their game to "Undetectable" or pack in?
That OZ frame guy advertizes in the AMCA mag after all!

How many previous Winners Circle bikes now won`t make the grade (lost the provenance already without being judged again?)

[joestuff]

Agreeing with Gerg H...

I wish to restate my position, the correct way to make the Winners Circle harder to obtain and only for the top bikes is not to take away points from guys that have earned them, but to raise the bar for the Winners Circle. Like this, a Winner's Circle Bike is a bike that has won a junior and senior awards, and has the original engine, frame and sheet metal. One new line of the form for why it is not eligible for winners circle. Done, that was simple. And we could now resume our hobby of building junk to Senior status.

ps, I consider a bike with a OZ frame to be a "swap meet" bike. Re-constructed.

[Flowercrout]

I am new to this and trying to put a 1957 xl back together. To me this sounds like Bloomington Gold for Covettes. With them there are different classes and only one area of the car can be restored at a time but then it will cost you points. Paint to new..no orange peal is ok if from factory. Mustangs the same but not as strict. I guess this will weed out the correct bikes from the repop ones. Vin numbers are always checked engine, trans, rear end to the car. The only thing that will happen is is you want your bike restored it is going to cost more now if you want to go original. If your going to build a show winner you better start of with a good bike or have a lot of correct parts or deep pockets.

[magneto sportster]

I see what the AMCA is trying to do with these rule changes and I agree that they are moving in the right direction. However, I also have to agree with Joestuff that there are a lot of members with bikes that may never be winner's circle bikes but would still like to make them as correct as possible.

Maybe it is time to create a 3rd category to include bikes that are restored but are flawed in some way that prevents them from achieving winner's circle. It could also include the much talked about bikes that are all original with the exception of a repaint. It might be a way to keep people from feeling excluded and the AMCA from appearing too "elitist."

This way, we could have a category for winner's circle (restored and unrestored) that would be stricter and would be the "bloomington gold" examples.

[Sarge]

Important points, all of them you guys made, Big, Joe, Greg.
As far as I know, Bigincher, you are putting a genuine 1952 frame that you have expended much effort and dinero in getting "right," around your original '52 engine. (Oh, "cylinders" don't count off 6 points, BTW. I guess they're now considered in the "Service items" category, of things that are expected to wear out (but: ?). Only engine cases and heads, to keep out the STD-type parts, were mentioned). Remember, it's detectability. If you can't tell, visually, it has to fly, no matter what it is. Repop cylinders, without the proper casting numbers on their base, would be a numerical deduction, but not 6 points, like aftermarket cases, or heads, I believe.
As a 1952, when finished, your '52 will be an outstanding piece of history, and certainly be worth far more that it would with an Easy Rider sissy bar and chrome frame!
Not every old bike is buildable to the nth degree, as now demanded for qualification for the Winners' Circle. Some have just been too beaten up, or cast to the four winds, in their long lifetimes. The idea is, that bikes that do make that grade will be lead-pipe-cinches to be bikes that you can trust: to be able to study, and to photograph to your heart's content, and be completely confident that if you build exactly what you see, you'll be doing it right, for that model and year.
Joe, Exactly. The knowledge transfer is right there, as I said. The point is that bikes in the Winners' Circle of Excellence are the ones you can go to, and trust anything you find on them when building yours. They come out to meets, having already won, they are put on display
Their incentive is to qualify for one more "Winner's Circle" emblem, a number of which are attached to a wooden plaque, also supplied by the club, and more, as you fill up multiple plaques. Winners' Circle bikes' owners need only to "ask for another plaque." I was talking to an old friend today who attends almost every National Meet with his Winners' Circle VL. He has a bunch of plaques, and told me that today, he qualified for his seventy-second "Winners' Circle" attendance award for that single bike.
His bike is one you can eat off of. And owners of like VLs are drawn to it like flies at meets, investigating every (correct) part on it, to see how they work, and work with each other.
Greg the distinction you brought up, "matching numbers" of Indian engines and frames, still applies only to purported "original condition" Indians. It's still a "restoration," after all, but repro frames having no casting hallmarks will be a 6 point deduction.
So, the new highest level to which bikes with any of these "six-point" shortcomings can aspire is going to be "Junior First (90 points); which elevates that to a meaningful status, considering that they will be starting with a 6 point handicap, a "90," to any of them will be like an old "96!" They won't be able to lose more than 4 points' deductions for the rest of the bike. That's important to understand.
We did a Harley XA today, judged once before (and got 97 1/4 points, for his Junior First ("junior" because it had never been judged before, regardless of how many points over 90). Today we went over it with a fine tooth comb, and found some things different, some things previously noted had been corrected, but basically, the owner, knowing he already had an "over 95 pointer," had left it alone. So, today was his Senior Award. He'll bring it out once more, and left in the same condition, it will no doubt get the Winners' Circle Award.

Originally Posted by Greg H

How many previous Winners Circle bikes now won`t make the grade (lost the provenance already without being judged again?)

A good point, Greg! Every time a previous Winners' Circle bike comes out to collect another award, it is re-entered in judging, which has been, up-til-now, usually a cursory glance, and signature and member numbers of the judging team on the form. Now, we will see things like numbers and "High Visibility Parts" given a much closer look by the judges.
Now, I can't see a bike being "removed" from Winners' Circle status, being kind of "grandfathered in," (and they only have to maintain a minimum of 85 points to keep winning), but we may see a closer examination of VINs. And a few Winners' Circle bikes with bad numbers, known to their owners, but up-to-now no big deal, staying home. Good point.

[MeanGene]

In the new standards, was the ridiculous "no such thing as a 100 point bike" thing addressed? The whole idea of judges nit-picking a very nice, well-done and correct machine until they "find" something "wrong" is just - wrong. Seems to have way more to do with the egos of the judges than the condition of the bike- 99-1/2 is ridiculous in most cases- if it's right, give credit where it's due, don't go out of your way to "find" something. None of them were perfect when they left the factory, nor were they all exactly the same- no production-built machines are