flathead or nothing

[flathead]

lets see harley went to ohv in 1936 but indian stayed with flathead engines until the end

did indian die because of flatheads or did they say theyd rather die then switch

i want to believe the second dont you

[41 big chief]

ya i do beleve you are wright

[Rubone]

So how do you explain the whole 149,249,Warrior,etc.
Indian died through poor management, nothing more, nothing less.
Robbie

[2vls]

Don't forget that along with OHV, the 1936 Harley EL introduced a four-speed, constant mesh transmission. Indian big twins continued with a three-speed sliding gear transmission to the end. The Harley transmission was in my view as big an advance as OHV in terms of performance and reliability. My 32 V Harley has a sliding gear tranny much like the Indian's, so I've had some experience with this technology.

As to the late 1940s OHV Indian vertical twins and singles, I've never owned one. But I understand that they were just not ready for prime time. Reliability was poor. Ironically, though they were inspired by and aimed to compet against the British vertical twins of the time, the basic design managed to introduce even more oil leak points than the Brits had.

By the time the smaller bikes were sorted (if they ever were--you Indian experts please enlighten us) it was too late. Indian brought back the 80c.i. flatheads, but adios.

Maybe Indian lacked the resources to introduce better technology, but I'd call all of this a management shortcoming.

Walt
32V4191
AMCA 5850

[Mike337]

In 1946/47 motorcycle registration was up to 400,000 bikes, the bulk of these were light weights, foreign made.

With lagging big twin sales, they attempted to capitalize on this, Indian started a light weight division and rolled out the first one in July/48. In Sept/48, the Brits devalued the pound. This made Brit bikes cheaper to buy than US bikes. (Not too unlike the beating that HD took from Honda in the late 60's)

With lagging sales, Indian ended up in bed with Vincent-HRD. Then a loan from Brockhouse got Indian stuck with being a retail outlet to sell AJS, Douglas, Excelsior, Matchless, Norton, Royal Enfield and Vincent. 1950 saw sales of 500 500cc Warriors and 500 Chiefs. This ended up with Rogers resigning and Brockhouse taking over in 1950. They continued with the Chief and twins till 53 and then overnight the Chief was dropped an Royal Enfield plugged in. 1955-59 were Royal Enfields labeled as Indians and by 62 it was Matchless-Indian.

Through out a lot of it's history Indian was plagued with poor decisions by management and they got into a lot of things other than motorcycles, boat engines and shock absorbers come to mind.

[indianut]

Harley Davidson was owned by Motorcycle Enthusiasts and Indian was owned by Big Business(of the time). When I was a kid growing up in Dallas my Dad worked for a company called Texas Industries or T.X.I. He worked for them until I was 20 or so. Well into motorcycles and Old trucks. I realized 20 years later when I Finally read The Iron Redskin, that the man who dealt Indian it's final blow, was Ralph Rogers, the one who figured the Vertical twins and singles would save Indian, and the man who ended up running T.X.I. When I talked to my Dad about this he said that, yes it was the same Ralph Rogers and the few times I went to work with my Dad the guy I met as his boss was Ralph Rogers, the final owner, of Indian. To my Dad, not a Motorcycle Enthusiast, this meant Nothing!! He told me his Son is still alive and in the Dallas area.

[LIFELONG]

the excellant and well researched 'iron redskin' would seem to also point to poor management as the final blow for indian,and although he was indeed a big business magnate,rogers was also a keen motorcyclist and a diehard indian fan.

[chiefrider]

Another factor....

During WWII, Both Harley and Indian were commissioned to build shaft driven bikes for the African front, where BMWs and Zundapps ruled and chain-driven Allied bikes were chewed up by the sand.

Harley, by luck of the draw, had their orders fulfilled by the required date, and received payment. Indian was about to deliver when the Allies took northern Africa and abruptly cancelled their Indian order. Indian spent (and lost) significant money on the project, money that otherwise could've been earmarked for postwar product development and refinement.

By the end of the 1940s, Indian was badly battered and on the ropes.

Another way of looking at this.....

Indian big twins were a sorted out design, and although a bit more crude than the HD, functioned well. Think current bikes: Electraglide vs GoldWing.

Another perspective--at AMCA riding events here on the left coast, Indians are very well represented. Often, 1940s vintage Indians outnumber HDs two-to-one. That has to mean something about the strength of their design (but I still think the old three-speed is a bit garden-tractorish ).

[Sarge]

You're talking about the Indian model 841, the transverse 45 v-twin: too little, too late. But one of Indian's biggest mistakes was taking and following the US Gummint's misguided specification for a "30.50 ci capacity twin for military use" before the war even started.
Someone at the Puzzle Palace in Wash. D.C., saw what the Brits were using, undersized little bikes like sidevalve BSAs and things, and so when it came time to write a spec for an American military motorcycle, they asked for a 500cc twin, to be loaded up with all the military junk: skid plate, blackout lights, oil-bath air cleaner, saddlebags, rifle rack, map holder, etc.
Harley, like was said above, was run by motorcyclists, and probably the consummate motorcycle engineer and designer of the time, William S. Harley, while Indian showed its "business" roots by trying to meet the gummint expectations to the letter, and so made the ill-fated decision to fit their entry-level 500cc "Indian Jr. Scout" jugs and heads to the 45ci (750cc) Sport Scout lower end. The results complied exactly with the gummint contractual requirements; and, unfortunately, it couldn't get out of its own way, basically. Very much like something run by businessmen first, motorcyclists second.
Meanwhile, William S. Harley looked at that same set of gummint specifications and said (in effect), "To hell with that. If we try to build a little 30.50 twin for the military, we'll be out of business! We'll adapt our forty-five, and they'll like it!"
And the rest is history. Harley made his WLAs, that saw service all over the world, to rave reviews, and many are still running today, 65 years after the war ended.
Indian, OTOH, slapped the 741s together in an attempt to follow the letter of the contract like good business-robots, and found themselves stamping out mess kit spoons and other thngs to struggle through, by the time the war ended. A sad, sad chapter.
Indian basically wore out their tooling, making the little 741s at the beginning of the war. After it was over, and when its loyal riders and dealers clamored for the return of the 45 Scout model, the most popular Indian before WWII, and their racer, there were none to be had. They'd worn out the means of production, and had no money for capital improvements. Even the post-war Daytona-winning Indian racers were just warmed-over prewar Scout motors.
The giant 1912 Wigwam in Springfield, "the largest motorcycle factory in the world" (1914 ads) was mostly an empty tomb, with a small production line over here, another over there. but it never had hummed to the capacity projected for it by Hendee and Hedstrom when they built it. It's a sad tale with many, many chapters. They turned off the lights in 1953. I think it was finally demolished it in the 1980s. Parts might still be low-income housing, or apartments or something. I read of some plans for that at the time.

[flat-happy]

indian BUSINESS died from fatheads not flatheads. indian MOTORCYCLES have never and will never die